We are thrilled to introduce Julie Posluns, founder of Cat School on All My Children Wear Fur Coats hosted by Peggy Hoyt. She has embarked on a mission to transform training into a joyful, effortless, and enriching experience for both cats and their human companions.Support the show
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Hello, pet lovers.
Welcome to All My Children Wear Fur Coats.
I'm your host, Peggy Hoyt, and this show is brought
to you by the law offices of Hoyt and Brian,
where we create estate plans for pets and their people.
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Today we are fortunate to have
as our guest Julie Posluns.
She is the founder of Cat School.
Thank you so much.
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To get started today.
Well, I'm really excited to talk cats and we
will go from there, but I do want to
tell people a little bit about your background.
Julie is an applied animal behaviorist and the founder
of Cat School, a clicker training school for cats.
The Cat School mission is to make training a fun,
easy, and enriching experience for cats and their people.
You talk like I do, so we talk about
cats and their people or pets and their people. Right.
And I understand that you might
have started out training dogs.
Tell us about that.
So I actually started out I went to a training
school for dogs and then it wasn't good methods.
So when I came back, I ended up getting a puppy
who was very challenging, like biting skateboarders and lunging at kids,
and it just kind of threw me for a loop.
I had taken this training course and
didn't know how to help him.
So that was my introduction into clicker training.
And I found a book or someone recommended one
on clicker training and started working with him.
So I was starting to teach him how to
tolerate skateboarders, going by and stuff like that.
And then I ended up realizing how little
I knew about dogs and dog training and
decided to become a dog walker.
A friend encouraged me to instead of being a
trainer, which I had thought that was kind of
like my plan and why I went to school.
I ended up deciding to just get into dog walking, and
that was, like, the best thing for me because I got
to spend so much time with dogs, taking them to the
dog parks and learning about them and observing them.
And in the end, I loved it so much.
My dog walking business grew.
It was just like we had
sometimes 80 dogs on our roster.
Oh, my goodness.
It was insane, but so much fun.
I had just such a great time.
And I ended up going back to school to
do my Masters to study the interactions of dogs
because I was so interested in part of building
familiarity with them, why they were getting into aggressive
interactions, like all that stuff.
I was really, really interested in it.
So I went back to school to study dog interactions.
I did my thesis on dog interactions.
When I came back from my Masters, my business was still
running, but that's when I kind of was like, okay, I
think I've been doing this for ten to 15 years.
It's time for a new challenge.
That's always a good outcome
when you find new challenges.
And that new challenge turned up in the form of a cat.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
I was trying to figure out what was next, and then
I found a little kitten outside, and the rest is history.
So tell us about this kitten
and how he changed your life.
So I found this kitten outside.
He was under a porch, and I was just like I was
on the phone in my house and I heard a little bit
of crying and I went outside and anyway, brought him inside, cleaned
him up and proceeded to try to find him a home.
Because, of course, I had difficult dogs
and they weren't really great with cats.
We actually had a cat who lived upstairs, and I never
bothered to really do any training with them with cats.
It was just something area
that I hadn't really explored.
So I put him upstairs and tried to find him a new home.
Anyway, he was just adamant
about interacting with the dogs.
He would come down the stairs, they would
bark at him, he'd run back up.
He just did this over and over again until
eventually they were like, okay, he's not so bad.
And then that was when I realized that he could
probably live with them, that he could handle he could
handle them, and they were all bark and no bite,
and I wasn't nervous, and so I was like, okay,
well, I wonder if I could keep them.
And then he just started doing
more and more dog like things.
So at the time I was a dog person.
It was kind of like, divided in my house.
My husband was the cat person and took care
of the cat, and I was the dog person.
Took care of the dogs.
And so this little kitten was kind of bridging the gap
between that, and suddenly he was acting like a dog.
Good marriage counselor too, and he was
joining all the dog training sessions, and
he was just very interactive and stuff.
And that just started to get me kind of looking more
into cat training and not seeing a lot of resources.
I was kind of baffled by, like,
why is this cat, this kitten, so
interested in joining all our training sessions?
He's such a smart little learner.
He's, like, picking up all the same
skills, and he loves it so much.
But what was actually the most interesting thing that
I did was I went upstairs and I started
training the other cat, because I was like, okay,
if he loves it, maybe it's just him.
And I was so surprised at how much she loved it.
I also felt terrible at how little
enrichment she had been getting when there
was this huge opportunity for her.
Plus, she started coming downstairs because she
used to stay upstairs because of the
dogs, and suddenly she was more confident.
She had a reason to come downstairs
because she heard the training going on.
So it just literally changed everything in our house.
And I was just amazed by what a
great form of enrichment and activity it was
for indoor cats because they get so little.
So I just started working with both my cats.
In the end, I just had them both
upstairs, and we were doing tons of stuff.
Unfortunately, the older cat, Mackenzie, didn't live much longer, so I
only got to do a bit of work with her.
But during that time, I was able to see how
much she loved it and how much it benefited her.
And she wasn't really big into playing, so it
was perfect too, because I actually had a way
to bond and engage with her every day consistently.
Like, we had our little sessions, and she would come and
join in, and it was just a lot of fun.
So I know that people say that cats
can't be trained, and obviously that's not true.
You have proved that over and over again
to the point where you created cat school. Yes.
So now everybody who's listening, your
cats can go to school.
How awesome is that?
Yes, they are highly trainable animals.
They really learn quickly.
I think most people are surprised when they see
how fast and how many skills they can learn.
So they're not stubborn or aloof.
They like the challenge and they
join in on the program. Exactly.
If you have the right reinforcements for them, I e.
Treats that they like, then it's a lot easier.
But I think the pieces are already there.
It's funny how the connections don't necessarily happen, but
we see our cats engaging in food puzzles, so
we know they like to problem solve.
We know they like to be busy.
We see them stealing food off the counter.
We see them looking for challenges and stuff.
So those are already the seeds of I
want challenges, I want to do more things.
I want to work for food really right.
I'll do anything to get that little morsel of food.
I'll jump on the counter, even
annoy you, to get that food.
So those seeds are already planted,
I think, with most cats.
But a lot of things we do a
lot of things differently with cats than dogs.
And it does prevent them from being trainable.
One of those things being leaving
their food out all day.
So anyone who leaves their food out all
day, it's going to affect how much your
cat wants to work for their food.
But you don't need to do training to understand that.
You need to do food puzzles, because
food puzzles will show you right away.
If your cat's not interested in food puzzles, that's a good
way to say, okay, what can I do to improve that?
Food puzzles are, I would say, one of
the easiest forms of enrichment for cats.
Putting their food, having them work for
a puzzle to find the treats.
And we want them to be able to do that.
So I always encourage people to kind of explore that and
get them working and then clicker training is a nice next
step to say, okay, my cat likes this activity.
They like working for food.
I have reinforcements they're interested in.
What else can I do with them?
So where can we find cat food puzzles?
Well, there's a great website called
Foodpuzzlesforcats.com, and it has all different
puzzles and rates them on levels.
There's even like a research paper on all the benefits
of food puzzles, how they solve problems with cats, and
that foraging for food is a normal and natural behavior
for cats, and everyone should try to have some sort
of foraging in their cat's lives.
And it's a fantastic website.
I always send people there to encourage them.
What we don't want is to say to someone, go try this.
And I think this is very common with cats
and, oh, it didn't work, it didn't work.
So that's why I really like having
a comprehensive resource like that that says,
like, okay, try this and do this.
And it makes it really easy find a level
one puzzle, because what we don't want is someone
going on Amazon and buying a level three puzzle
and then their cat doesn't do it.
We want to make sure that they find something
that's really easy for their cat to do.
So I'm feeling a little bit bad because I
do leave my cat food down all the time.
I don't really make my cats work for their food.
I do make my forest kitty work for his
treats, but that's because he has to take medicine.
And so I give him the medicine and then I give
him a treat and that has worked out really well.
But now you've got me thinking that perhaps I
should reevaluate this approach and get some cat food
puzzles, and maybe my little Jenny girl will lose
some of the poundage that she has gained recently.
Yeah, I mean, it's a great way to slow them
down, to give them the mental enrichment that they need.
And it's also fun to see your cat
problem solving and trying these different puzzles, seeing
how you get to know them too, right?
Like, what kind of cat is your cat?
How long will they work at a puzzle?
If you have three or four cats, you're going
to see certain cats are like, they'll sit there
for hours and others might walk away.
So it's a fun way to
get to know their personality, too.
And then, of course, you can try the different
puzzles and see how they respond to them.
And also, like, trying different treats.
How do they respond to the different treats in them?
That's also a good way to getting to
know cats can be kind of fun.
What do we learn more about their personality when
we start to provide these challenges for them?
Well, so you mentioned clicker training.
Tell us what clicker training is
for people who might not know.
So clicker training is the method based on
positive reinforcement, which means that we reward or
we reinforce behaviors, and then those behaviors get
repeated because behaviors that get rewarded get repeated.
So that's the whole idea behind it.
So we create the environment that encourages
the cat to do the behavior.
Then the click is how we tell the
cat that's the behavior that we want.
So think about it this way.
If your cat gives you sits and gives you a high five
and you give them a treat, how will they know if you're
giving them a treat for the high five or the sit?
Because once you give them the treat,
their paws are already on the floor.
Maybe they've stood up or maybe they've walked away.
The only way for them to actually know which behavior they're
getting a treat for is if you add a marker.
And that's what a clicker is.
So if you're teaching high five, you click
the split second your cat raises their paw.
And that's what tells your cat that raising their
paw was the behavior that got that treat.
And once they know that raising their paw got the treat,
and they're going to start to do it again because they're
like, every time I raise my paw, I get a treat
and they're going to start to present their paw.
So we use the clickers like a bridge
in their learning to help them understand which
behavior they did that earned the reinforcement.
So do you give them verbal
cues as well, or hand signals?
What other kind of cues do you give them?
So I like with cats, I really like the signal stuff.
In the environment, especially in the beginning.
So what I'll say to people, one of the
easiest skills to start with is teaching the cat
to get a treat out of a cup.
So we put a little treat in the cup, the cat
gets the treat out of the cup, and then the cup
is the signal that this is what you have to do.
And so then that's one of the ways I can teach fist
bump or high five is the cat learns I have to put
my paw on the cup and then I can start raising the
cup and that's how I get them to raise their paw.
So I like using props, especially in the
beginning, but then we add in hand signals
and voice signals and stuff like that.
But it's definitely easier in the beginning if you have
a clear prop or like, I don't know if you're
familiar with a target stick, but a lot of times
we use a stick and the cat has to touch
their nose to the ball end of the stick.
So the stick is the cue for training.
And that keeps it really simple because with
hand signals are easier than voice signals.
But again, our hands are all moving around in the environment
a lot, so they might not stand out as well.
So when you have a prop, that can be really
effective in helping the cat see that this is a
training assignment, because they see the prop and they know
right away, okay, it's time for training.
Okay, I think it sounds like a blast.
So how do people learn more?
How do they sign up?
So one of the ways that people can get
started really easily is just going to our YouTube
channel, youtube.com Cat School, and there's lots of lessons.
There's one that's kind of fun to
do, it says is your cat trainable.
And they can try the five skills
to see if their cat likes it.
And there's a video on treats where I talk about because
I think a lot of people will get stuck at that
first step and say, well, what treats should I be giving?
And that's not the right question because we actually
want to make sure if you use dry food,
your cat should work for dry food.
So that's number one.
Having to use exciting treats, it's not
really the path that we want.
We want people to be able to train with healthier food.
Just like with food puzzles, we want to
be able to use the cat's food.
So same with training.
I train my cat with wet food or a handful of dry food.
So I don't even really use.
Sometimes I'll use freeze dried
treats, which can be great.
But anyway, back to YouTube.
I'll have a few of these videos just to
help people kind of troubleshoot in the beginning so
they can figure out the first steps.
And the other thing that we have that makes it
easy for people to get started is a training kit.
So that includes a clicker, a target stick, and a
little booklet, a little quick start guide, and it's on
our website if they want to find it on our
website, which is just cat school co.
And you also have a leash walking kit? Yes.
Brings us to a whole nother thing.
Can't you teach a cat to walk on a leash?
Yes, you can.
And it's definitely getting more popular.
I'm pretty sure that Harness is like one of
the most popular search harness Training is like, one
of the most popular searches with cats right now.
It's just blowing up.
Like, so many people are interested in leash
walking them with cats, which is very exciting.
It means cats are going to be kept a lot safer, and
it's a great way for people to spend time with their cats.
It's different than walking a dog.
So that can be kind of nice, too.
It can be a bit more relaxing depending on where
you live, obviously, walking your cat, I mean, you're not
going to go jogging with your cat, right?
Yeah, a lot depends on the environment where you live.
But I think there is a way that most people
can do it and keep it kind of low key
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What do you tell people when they say, well,
if I start taking my cat outside, then he's
going to want to go outside all the time?
Yeah, that is definitely a common one.
Well, first I like people to try
it because that might not happen.
I think sometimes we jump so many steps
forward before we actually try something, and you
might find that your cat, like, my cat
will come in for dinner all the time. He loves food.
He loves his meals.
And then for me, it's just
about changing the chapter for him.
So again, if he comes in and I give him a
food puzzle, then it's like, okay, we're in food puzzle mode.
And then after that, he's forgotten about the leash walks
and stuff, and we've moved on, kind of thing.
Okay, so I say try it.
The other thing is a good question to kind
of ask is, should you be on a routine?
And like, dogs learn the routine.
They learn a window when their walks are and just
like they don't bother you for walks all day.
Why are we assuming that our cats will?
So one of the things that is good, having a
dog background is it allows you to kind of say,
why don't we say the same thing for dogs?
Why do we always come up with these
stories for cats, but not for dogs?
And so whenever there's a story like that, I try to
say, well, okay, that doesn't exist in the dog world.
Why is it existing in the cat world that
we can walk dogs twice a day and they're
not constantly harassing us to go outside?
But when it comes to cats, it is that way.
And is it that way because
they don't get enough enrichment inside?
All these things we can look at?
So it's not always that simple.
But is it going to be a problem first? We don't know.
And if it is, then we kind of go to, okay,
well, now it's a problem, how do we solve it?
And I would say the first thing we do is
when they come inside is try to change the chapter
so that they're kind of like, okay, that chapter is
done and this is a new chapter.
And now we're getting our meal.
We're getting a food puzzle.
We're playing and we've moved on.
So I have a cat that every time I open
the garage door, he wants to run out, but once
he gets out there, he's like immediately like, oh, no,
I didn't really mean to come out.
And then he runs right back in.
So maybe if he had a little more
walking opportunities, he would feel differently about that.
Yeah, it's hard to say what he's
scared of, why he's running back in.
Is it a fear thing?
That would be my first thing is I
try to understand, is it that he's fearful?
And then if it is because of that, how could we introduce
him to the environment slowly so he kind of gets used to
it in a way that he doesn't have to panic. Right.
That does happen with cats.
That happens a lot, where they kind of
do something and then they panic and they're
like, oh, I didn't mean that.
So I think we want them kind of not in
that panic mode, but more in being in kind of
control of their impulsive, which training obviously helps with that
too, because you could do, for example, what I would.
Probably say in that situation is to try to train your cat to
go in and out of the house in a much calmer way.
So we go out, we get a treat, we go back
in, we get a treat, we go out and you kind
of expand the zone a little bit from there.
So it's not really an emotional response,
but he's actually thinking about it.
Yeah, actually, I do want to go outside. Okay.
Yeah, I can go back inside.
I know how to get back inside,
so this isn't a big deal.
Yeah, very good advice.
Very good advice.
Well, my cats are lucky, I think they have a patio,
so they can spend a lot of time outside just observing
nature and checking out what's going on in the outside.
But they've never had the opportunity that you're
talking about of being put on a leash
and taught to actually walk around outside.
I mean, if you have a cadio, like for
people who have cadios, that's pretty amazing and maybe
you don't even really need to do it.
It really depends on everyone's cat.
I think the idea is that we a have to
recognize that many indoor cats are not getting enough enrichment
and then how can we kind of meet those needs?
And it doesn't necessarily mean everyone has to kind
of do it all, but I think I like
to kind of think about it too.
It's like doing a little bit of each.
So I'd like to do a little bit of
play, a little bit of food puzzle, a little
bit of training, a little bit of outside.
I wouldn't want everything to be all about outside,
because outside is there's also like it's not that
safe sometimes for people, there are more things outside.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
So I personally tried to limit my cats outdoor
because I know there are obviously depends on where
people walk, but if you're walking in a neighborhood
where there's dogs, possibly someone might have their dog
off leash, like in a lane way.
That's kind of something that has happened to
us a few times where someone just lets
their dog out into the laneway.
All they're doing is trying to get them in
the car and then the dog sees your cat
and scary things like that can happen.
It'd be very dangerous for both of them. Exactly.
So I like to do a little
bit of everything, but everyone's different.
Some people will take their
cats adventuring out and camping.
That's right, yeah.
So I think everyone's different.
And I don't like to tell people, do this, do
that, but I think the big overarching goal is, can
we find a way to give our cats more enrichment?
If you have a patio and they
love it out there, that's amazing.
I wish we could have a catio.
Yeah, I'm lucky that way.
And I think my cats are lucky too.
Plus, they have their own locked in the house
that they can fly up the stairs and hang
out up there and observe everything that's going on.
But I do have a question, because
I didn't really realize this until recently.
So I have historically fed my
cats nothing but dry foods.
And now my cat Forest has an illness
and he needs to gain some weight.
So the solution was to put him on a
wet cat food, a high calorie wet cat food.
Well, he has never eaten wet cat food in his life
and when I introduced it to him, he basically turned his
nose up at it and said, I have no idea what
that is and I am not going to eat it.
So could you use clicker training to help condition
your cat to transitioning to that wet food diet?
You could in a way.
This is very similar to like when someone says,
eat your veggies and then you get dessert.
So that principle does work with cats, but I don't
know if that would be my first approach because again,
I think the first approach in your situation would just
be to pick up the food so that it's not
out and available all the time.
But you might try that.
You could lick the spoon and then you
get some of the kibble that you love.
Like, it's worth a shot.
You could also definitely try different things,
I think, when it comes to food.
Are we doing a slow enough introductory process?
Are we trying to introduce the food that
they're already familiar with, like the same protein?
So it's actually not always that simple.
One thing that I do discourage people is going
and keep looking for food and trying different things.
Oh, my cat doesn't like this.
That's not the right approach.
Yeah, you could go broke doing that. Right.
And it gets very frustrating.
But it's good that you're on this journey
of switching out of dry food because I
definitely think that affects cats trainability as well.
Only feeding them dry food will affect their food motivation
and the dry food is really good for training.
So what I like to get people started on is
wet food meals, scheduled wet food meals and then handful
of their cats dry food for training or puzzles.
I love the idea.
I'm definitely going to try it and then
I'll have to report back to you and
to the listeners as to whether I'm successful.
Well, I do note that on your website at Catschool
Co, lots and lots of great articles about how to
train your cat and all kinds of questions that you
might have and plus some really cute cat pictures.
Yeah, we also have a really good Instagram
account where I try to show people doing
that's, where I try to feature students.
We're definitely like showing that
other cats can learn.
It's not just me and my cat,
thousands of cats can do this.
And we also have an online program if
people want more structure that has a roadmap
and they can ask questions and get support.
Yeah, with grades.
So it's grades one to five.
So I just noticed one of your
articles and I'm sure people want to.
Know the answer to this question is, can you
train your cat to talk with talking buttons?
That has exploded in popularity in the last few years.
And I know it's exciting because people
want to do more with their cats.
Can every cat learn to press a button? Yes.
Can every cat learn to press a button knowing that
it's like a treat or going for a walk? Yes.
When it starts to become ten buttons and they're all
close together and they have to kind of figure out
which buttons which I don't know the answer.
I think that the science isn't there
yet to say that they have.
I think a lot of people who are playing
this game with their cat are assuming things and
while it can be cute yeah, I think you
want to be careful what you're going to say.
Your cat knows.
My cat is saying that they are upset.
That's that's dangerous, in my opinion, because look
at their tail, look at their body language.
Those are their signals.
They already have all the signals
to tell us how they're feeling.
They don't need to press a button to
tell us that they're upset about something.
I can look at my cat tail,
I can look at his body language.
Is he not eating?
All those other things are going to tell me and those
to me are better signals than relying on a button when
we don't even know if the cat truly understands it. Yes.
So I think for again, going back to dog stuff,
a long time ago, we taught dogs to press a
bell when they wanted to go outside to make to
use the bathroom or to relieve themselves.
Is it really that different?
The dog would go and hit the bell or
press a button that they want to go outside.
That's nothing new.
So at some point these things get
repackaged and it makes it exciting again.
But I think it's not really that new.
We've always been able to kind of do that.
When they put it all together
inside by side, that's new.
But the science isn't really there.
Like, if we actually want to teach animals,
why aren't the buttons near the site where
we want them to be telling us something?
So, like, for example, with the bell,
it would go by the door.
So with the buttons, they're just kind of
laid right next to each other, which is
obviously going to make it harder.
So I don't know, I have a
lot of mixed feelings about it.
On one hand, I really like that people are
trying to communicate with their pets and stuff, but
it is a bit of the wild west with
these buttons, and if it's at the risk of
the animal getting frustrated, then I don't like it.
I feel like pretty much know what my pets
are thinking at any moment in time anyway, right?
I've always felt that there's very
few things that I don't know.
And the other thing is, with answering questions
like that, there actually is some science on
some really cool stuff that they've done with
other animals, too, with clicker training.
So when they actually want to ask questions
to animals, like, do you prefer this?
The people at universities who study
animal behavior actually use clicker training.
So, for example, there was one study where they asked
horses, do you want to wear a blanket or not?
Would you prefer to wear a blanket or not?
And guess what?
They use clicker training to teach them.
There's a lot of science of people who have already done
so much stuff on this, and it's been done well.
And I don't know, like coming up with the buttons
when they aren't done properly and they're possibly causing frustration
and stuff, it's just not aligned with what we've kind
of studied as animal behaviors and stuff.
So I think that's the other part for me.
I wish more people would do clicker training because
that's been studied and we have examples of that
where if you want to do those advanced concepts
like asking your cat yes or no, guess what?
There's a way to do it.
Of course, only the most advanced trainers do it.
That's the irony, too, with buttons.
Everyone's like, oh, I can do this.
I wouldn't even day one, right? Yeah, day one.
My cat's talking.
But have I taught my cat yes or no?
Do you want to wear a blanket on your back?
I have, because these are very concepts that
are difficult and challenging, and I've been doing
training for 20 years, and it's hard.
It's not something that you just pick up like
that and say, oh, my cat's talking to me.
Well, then you probably still
learn something new every day.
Well, I'm taking a course right now that's
very like, yeah, that's all new for me.
Stuff I hadn't really considered or thought about.
It's a huge field.
Animal behavior is a huge, huge field.
We're always learning, and there's so much so
many little nuances to helping animals learn.
Okay, so I'm sure people also want
to know the answer to this question.
Can you train a kitten?
Kittens are so trainable.
So one of the things I recommend people start
with is getting your kitten, like socialization is the
most important thing because if your cat is fearful
of things, it makes training a lot harder.
So when you get a kitten, start
the socialization, socialization process off right away.
Introducing them to new experiences and stuff, obviously in
a slow way, not that they're going to be
that scared, but that they can notice it and
get treats and all that stuff.
But getting them used to the car and the carrier
and the vet and brushing and teeth brushing, those are
like, where you want to put your time in all
the things you say, I wish I would have done
that with my kitten, with my cat.
I wish my cat was better at going in the car.
I should have trained him when he was a kitten.
I wish my cat would let me brush his teeth. Okay.
I should have done that when he was a kitten.
All those things that you could see
yourself saying down the road would be
a great thing to introduce to kittens.
Including giving them pills, right?
Yeah, giving them pills, all that stuff. Exactly.
Making it easier to do all
those things and take them places.
If you are a person who plans on moving
and traveling and stuff, which I think a lot
of people are doing more and no one wants
to leave their cat alone for weekends and stuff
like that, we recognizing they're really interactive animals.
They love their attention, and they need play and enrichment,
and then we want to go away on the weekend.
Okay, now what?
So getting them used to that, too.
And bringing them with you?
Yeah, bringing them with you.
Getting them used to their backpack and stuff to make
it easier for you to put them in the car
and take them on a three hour drive.
If you want to go somewhere, stay
in an RV, that kind of thing. Absolutely. All right.
Well, to our listeners, I hope you enjoyed
learning all of this information today about cat
school and how smart our cats are.
And Julie has been doing this, as she
said, a long time, but to the point
where now you're just working with cats, right?
There's so much work to do with
spreading the message of clicker training.
It'll be a lifetime of work.
I mean, when you find something you're passionate about and
you can share it with people and you find a
receptive audience, that makes it all worth it, for sure.
Well, thank you so much, Julie, for joining us today.
And thank you to our listeners.
And if you would like to contact Julie or
get more information, you can go to catschool co.
And don't forget to find us on social
media at All My Children Wear Fur Coats.
And don't forget my favorite
motto until there are none.
Please adopt one, and we'll see you next time.
Thank you for joining us on All My Children.
Wear fur coats with your host, Peggy Hoyt.
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