The Animal Law Firm - Kristina Bergsten

Join Peggy Hoyt on All My Children Wear Fur Coats, with Kristina Bergsten, founder of The Animal Law Firm.

The Animal Law Firm specializes in animal law, with areas focused on including criminal defense for dogs that have been accused of biting other animals or people, civil cases such as dog bite defense, torts to get pets back for their owners, breeder contract disputes, and pet purchase contract disputes.

Listen in to learn more!

Transcript

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Welcome to All My Children.

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Wear Fur Coats with Peggy Hoyt.

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Our goal is to keep loved pets in loving

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homes by educating pet parents about the importance of

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ensuring every pet has a forever home.

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For more information about creating a legacy for

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your pet or to listen to archive shows,

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visit ANIMALCARETRUSTUSA.ORG or LEGACYFORYOURPET.COM.

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Join your host, author, estate planning

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attorney and animal advocate, Peggy Hoyt.

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Hello, pet lovers.

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Welcome to All My Children Wear Fur Coats

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My name is Peggy Hoyt and I'm your host.

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This show is brought to you by the

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law offices of Hoyt and Bryan, where we

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do estate planning for pets and their people.

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Also brought to you by Animal Care Trust

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USA, a national nonprofit whose mission is to

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keep loved pets in loving homes.

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We provide education and resources so you can create

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a pet trust to protect your loved pet.

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Today we have with us our special guest.

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Her name is christina bergsten, and she is

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the founder of the animal law firm.

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And welcome to the show, Kristina.

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Thanks, Peggy. Thanks for having me.

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Happy to be here.

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Technology and Animal Rescue?

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Yes, there's an app for that.

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Check out Doobert.com, where you can

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connect with over 5000 organizations and

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35,000 volunteers across the country.

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Doobert is fully automated so you can create

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transport requests for the animals that need a

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ride across town or across the country.

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The system will automatically notify the volunteers and

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manage the sign up process for you.

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Doobert even has powerful integrations, like importing

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your animal profiles from Shelter Love and

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Shelter buddy, or automatically pushing your transport

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request to your Facebook groups and pages.

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But that's not all.

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Doobert has a fundraising module, an online store and

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auction house where you can sell your items, and

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even a mobile app on both Android and Apple.

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For those people on the go, check out Doobert.com

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to get signed up for free today and start

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saving more time while you save more animals.

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So you have a really interesting back story and

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you do a lot of interesting things for pet

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owners and pet lovers on a daily basis.

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I'm going to let you take a few moments

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and introduce yourself and tell us how you got

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into this fascinating field of animal law.

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Sure. Thank you.

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Well, I guess where do I even begin?

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I've been doing animal law almost

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exclusively for about ten years now.

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Started practicing in Media, Pennsylvania.

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I was working for a family law firm,

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and I had some incredible bosses, and they

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said, hey, we know family law is tough.

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Is there anything else you'd like to do?

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And I said, well, how about

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environmental law and animal law?

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Everybody always asks, what made you say animal law?

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I honestly don't know to this day.

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I've been vegetarian for a long time.

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I've always loved animals.

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I've always been an animal advocate.

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But, yeah, I just said animal law.

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And before we knew it, we were getting calls left and

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right, and one of the first cases I took on when

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I worked for the other law firm was Pennsylvania State Police.

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No, I'm sorry, the horsham Township Police

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shot and killed a client's dog.

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It's a pretty hairy case, but yeah,

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that was one of my first cases.

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And then I had some life changes and

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decided to pack up and move to Colorado.

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Colorado had always been kind of

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my dream home, dream destination.

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I was just channeling John Mirror and the

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mountains were calling, so I had to go.

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And before I knew it, I was in Colorado.

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I didn't have any network, friends or family there, so

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my plan was to start working for just any job.

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And the job that I landed was a tax resolution company.

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One of those you see them on TV, well, you're

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debt with the irs for pennies on the dollar sort

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of thing, and started that in January 2017.

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And by March 2017, the company was going

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under a good two months at that job.

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Like I said, no network, no

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nothing, no friends, family or anything.

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So I started calling around the few people that I had

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made acquaintances with and saying, hey, I need a job.

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Do you need someone to nanny your kids?

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Do you need a secretary?

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Do you want me to pick up your dry cleaning? Anything.

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I have to work and I'm about to not be able to.

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And friend of mine named John Strange, he said,

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Well, I've got this office in downtown Denver, which

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was like the financial district, so they're main street

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where all the bigwigs had offices.

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And he's like, I could rent out

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one of these offices to you.

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And I said, oh, I don't think I can do that, John.

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I need a job to pay my rent.

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I don't know if I can rent an office too.

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So we ended up working out something

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that worked for both of us.

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And I sat there at my desk and waited

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for the phone to ring and built my website

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while I waited for the phone to ring.

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And then fast forward to now.

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I'm in Colorado, Pennsylvania, new Jersey was looking

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to expand into New York, Florida, Texas, california.

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Within the last few years, we've had anywhere from four

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to eight support staff and two to three attorneys.

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We're making changes, making waves with animal law,

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creative thinking, innovative thinking, applying old legal doctrines

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to animal related fact patterns that these legal

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doctrines were not created to address.

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Yeah, hopefully that answered the question.

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It was a long answer to a short

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question, but you know how attorneys can be.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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But you said a lot of interesting

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things in the course of doing that.

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One is you mentioned your website, so I want

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to make sure that people know that they can

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find you at the animal law firm.com, and there's

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a lot of really valuable information on that.

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Website, and I bet for a lot of people,

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they don't even know what animal law is.

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And it's new enough that most law schools

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just in the last ten to 15 years

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started offering courses in animal law.

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But I think the interesting thing that you might

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point out to people, and we could discuss a

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little more, is that animal law actually touches every

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single aspect of law, whether it's entertainment law, family

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law, estate planning, contract law, bailment law, personal injury

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law, veterinary malpractice law.

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I mean, the list goes on and on and on,

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including pet custody, which I'm sure is a question that

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comes up for you from time to time.

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So tell us about the aspects of animal law or

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the areas of animal law that you tend to focus

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on, but the ones that you feel like you're doing

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the most good for the pet owners.

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Sure, yeah.

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So, yeah, I mean, you're definitely right that

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as an animal lawyer, I am the closest

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thing to a modern day general practitioner.

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Most attorneys now, they specialize and

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they're just criminal defense attorneys, and

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usually they hyper specialize.

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I only do drug crimes or I only do

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white collar, and same thing on the civil side.

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But yeah, I do everything.

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I do criminal defense for dogs who are accused of

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biting other animals or people, because a lot of people

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don't even know that if your dog bites another animal

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or bites a person, that that's a crime in addition

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to something you can be sued for.

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So a lot of my clients come to me

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not understanding that they are charged with a crime,

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and depending on the jurisdiction, that dog bite, that

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single dog bite, even if it's another animal, can

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carry jail time as a maximum possible sentence.

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So most jurisdictions don't play around

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with these dog bite charges anyway.

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So I do criminal defense representing

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the dog and the dog owner.

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I will do civil cases.

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I will do dog bite defense on the civil side.

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So that means if somebody's suing you,

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you get a nasty letter in the

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mail from an attorney demanding your homeowner's

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insurance information or your renter's insurance information.

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And if you don't have insurance, then I can come in

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and defend the dog owner in that situation as well.

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Everything else, I think, more

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or less falls under civil.

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torts will do what's called replevant actions

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to get pets back for their owners.

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So a lot of times, unmarried couples will adopt

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a pet together and when they break up, unlike

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in a divorce, because animals are considered property in

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every jurisdiction, every state in the country.

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If a couple are married, then they

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can go through the property settlement agreement.

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They can go through divorce proceedings that

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have a mechanism to divide up the

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marital assets, the marital property.

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And unfortunately, a dog would be in the

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mix with the car, with the couch, with

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the TV, all that stuff, even though you.

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And I know pets are not really property.

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They're children who wear for coats.

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But unfortunately, that's the way law is.

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So married couples have a mechanism

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to decide who gets the dog.

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Unmarried couples do not have that same mechanism.

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So we either have to file a

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replevin, a partition action, a conversion.

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So all of those that I just

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listed are all old school property doctrines.

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And by old school, I mean,

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like, magna carta era legal doctrines.

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I mean, before America was even a thought legal doctrine,

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that would be our pet custody portion of it.

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We do breeder contract disputes,

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pet purchase contract disputes.

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Pennsylvania, New Jersey have what's colloquially

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referred to as puppy lemon laws.

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So just like lemon laws with a car, you buy a

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car that's a lemon, you have recourse under the law.

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Same thing here.

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You buy a puppy who is a,

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quote, unquote lemon, you have recourse.

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I do not like the puppy lemon law.

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I actually think it's a lot more restrictive on

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the owner's ability to recover the total cost.

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So, like, if I buy a puppy from ABC pet

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store and the puppy has parvo, I mean, that's a

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very deadly disease if you don't catch it fast enough,

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and it progresses extremely quickly as well.

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So, I mean, you really got to be on top of it.

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And saving a puppy's life from

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parvo can be exorbitantly expensive.

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I've seen people with two to 3000

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$5,000 in veterinary bills, depending on what

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life saving procedures had to be taken.

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So now if I'm in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, I've got

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a $15,000 vet bill, my puppy somehow magically survived.

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Not magically, but survived due

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to the life saving procedures.

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My only recourse under the puppy lemon

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law is to get my money back.

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But that means giving this puppy back to this

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irresponsible person who sold me the puppy in the

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first place, and my damages are limited to that

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if I try to sue and keep the puppy.

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This puppy lemon law actually does more to

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protect the bad actor than it does to

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protect the person who adopted the puppy.

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We handle that.

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Yeah, that's unfortunate.

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Florida has lemon laws for pets as well,

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and I fear that it's the same outcome.

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I'm sure I'm not licensed in

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Florida, so I haven't read it.

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But I'm sure the only way they can get stuff

257
00:12:44,853 --> 00:12:46,618
like that I mean, I could get on my soapbox

258
00:12:46,619 --> 00:12:48,766
all day and talk about what's wrong with our legislature

259
00:12:48,767 --> 00:12:51,288
in terms of animal legislation, but I mean, the only

260
00:12:51,289 --> 00:12:54,040
way they can get stuff like that passed is with

261
00:12:54,041 --> 00:12:57,518
the cooperation of breeders and pet stores.

262
00:12:57,519 --> 00:12:59,628
And they have a much stronger lobby than

263
00:12:59,629 --> 00:13:01,324
individual pet owners because they don't know that

264
00:13:01,325 --> 00:13:02,492
they need the lobby for this.

265
00:13:02,493 --> 00:13:05,372
They're not sitting there talking to their neighbor or

266
00:13:05,373 --> 00:13:09,068
their dog park friend like, hey, you know what?

267
00:13:09,069 --> 00:13:12,444
We really need to get together and advocate for

268
00:13:12,445 --> 00:13:15,312
stronger laws for our pets because nobody knows they

269
00:13:15,313 --> 00:13:17,360
need it until it happens to them.

270
00:13:17,361 --> 00:13:19,168
And then a lot of my clients are

271
00:13:19,169 --> 00:13:22,500
shocked when I tell them, yeah, pets are

272
00:13:22,501 --> 00:13:24,404
property under the laws of this state.

273
00:13:24,405 --> 00:13:26,960
And they're like, Are you serious? Yeah.

274
00:13:29,170 --> 00:13:32,430
I wish I was not serious, but no, it's terrible.

275
00:13:34,050 --> 00:13:37,650
Are we making progress in our laws? christina?

276
00:13:37,651 --> 00:13:39,060
I would say no.

277
00:13:39,061 --> 00:13:41,838
Even California and New York, they're

278
00:13:41,839 --> 00:13:43,342
kind of like the pillars.

279
00:13:43,343 --> 00:13:45,628
Alaska is actually doing some

280
00:13:45,629 --> 00:13:47,850
pretty cool stuff with pets.

281
00:13:47,851 --> 00:13:52,540
But, I mean, by and large, 48 47 of the Us.

282
00:13:52,541 --> 00:13:57,532
States are not doing anything that

283
00:13:57,533 --> 00:14:00,994
I would consider beneficial to pets.

284
00:14:00,995 --> 00:14:04,144
And, I mean, I don't know how much you

285
00:14:04,145 --> 00:14:06,944
want me on my soapbox, but a lot of

286
00:14:06,945 --> 00:14:10,830
this is because of the agricultural industry.

287
00:14:10,831 --> 00:14:15,850
It's very difficult to get legislation passed that benefits pets,

288
00:14:15,851 --> 00:14:19,476
because the agricultural lobbies will get in there and say,

289
00:14:19,477 --> 00:14:21,514
if you do this for dogs, how much longer till

290
00:14:21,515 --> 00:14:24,530
you're doing it for cows or chickens or pigs?

291
00:14:24,531 --> 00:14:26,488
And I'm vegan, so I'm kind of like, well,

292
00:14:26,489 --> 00:14:28,222
we should be doing it for cows and chickens

293
00:14:28,223 --> 00:14:32,190
and pigs, but not everybody subscribes to that lifestyle.

294
00:14:32,191 --> 00:14:33,000
So you're right.

295
00:14:33,001 --> 00:14:37,020
Not everyone thinks of animals, perhaps in the same way

296
00:14:37,021 --> 00:14:40,914
that you and I might, or some of our clients,

297
00:14:40,915 --> 00:14:45,868
because they are afraid of this creeping legislation, if you

298
00:14:45,869 --> 00:14:48,806
will, that might move into other areas.

299
00:14:48,807 --> 00:14:52,590
But nonetheless, there are a lot of

300
00:14:52,591 --> 00:14:57,216
organizations and people and lawyers like yourself

301
00:14:57,217 --> 00:15:00,582
who are making small inroads.

302
00:15:00,583 --> 00:15:04,032
I mean, their small progresses comes

303
00:15:04,033 --> 00:15:06,450
at a very snail pace.

304
00:15:06,451 --> 00:15:08,596
But one of the things I wanted to ask about

305
00:15:08,597 --> 00:15:11,556
with regard to pet custody, and one of the things

306
00:15:11,557 --> 00:15:14,328
that I talk to folks about when they're in an

307
00:15:14,329 --> 00:15:20,328
unmarried relationship is reaching an agreement early on before the

308
00:15:20,329 --> 00:15:24,552
relationship breaks up as to how an animal would be

309
00:15:24,553 --> 00:15:27,954
handled so that they actually have a binding contract.

310
00:15:27,955 --> 00:15:32,258
And because I do estate planning, I wrote

311
00:15:32,259 --> 00:15:35,714
a book for people who are unmarried couples.

312
00:15:35,715 --> 00:15:38,172
And of course, that's one of the issues that comes up.

313
00:15:38,173 --> 00:15:40,268
But it's not always something that we think

314
00:15:40,269 --> 00:15:43,920
about when we're in a loving relationship.

315
00:15:43,921 --> 00:15:46,048
And then we go to add a member to our

316
00:15:46,049 --> 00:15:48,358
family, a cat or a dog or a bird.

317
00:15:48,359 --> 00:15:52,932
And we're not thinking about the relationship terminating, but

318
00:15:52,933 --> 00:15:55,828
really that's something that we have to counsel our

319
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:59,268
clients about, because it can happen and it can

320
00:15:59,269 --> 00:16:03,992
be devastating, not only to the pet owners, but

321
00:16:03,993 --> 00:16:06,232
to the pet as well. Right?

322
00:16:06,233 --> 00:16:07,220
No, definitely.

323
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:13,608
Surrender appointments, microchipping inquiries, and

324
00:16:13,609 --> 00:16:15,966
lost pet notifications getting overwhelming

325
00:16:15,967 --> 00:16:18,170
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326
00:16:18,171 --> 00:16:21,292
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327
00:16:21,293 --> 00:16:25,074
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328
00:16:25,075 --> 00:16:27,052
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329
00:16:27,053 --> 00:16:30,130
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330
00:16:30,131 --> 00:16:32,678
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331
00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:34,278
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332
00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:36,128
and categorize them by type.

333
00:16:36,129 --> 00:16:38,112
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334
00:16:38,113 --> 00:16:40,922
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335
00:16:40,923 --> 00:16:44,980
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336
00:16:44,981 --> 00:16:51,796
To get started today, can you think of a

337
00:16:51,797 --> 00:16:55,208
pet custody example that you could give, maybe one

338
00:16:55,209 --> 00:16:58,376
that you've worked on in the past? Sure.

339
00:16:58,377 --> 00:17:00,600
I would say that pet custody probably

340
00:17:00,601 --> 00:17:03,650
makes up 45% of my caseload.

341
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:07,041
Pet custody, probably 45% dog bite defense.

342
00:17:07,042 --> 00:17:09,404
The other 45 and the remaining ten

343
00:17:09,405 --> 00:17:11,500
will be everything else that I do.

344
00:17:11,501 --> 00:17:14,428
But yeah, I mean, every single case of

345
00:17:14,429 --> 00:17:20,214
mine involving unmarried couples who broke up, none

346
00:17:20,215 --> 00:17:24,048
of them end well, emotionally speaking.

347
00:17:24,049 --> 00:17:27,872
I mean, we can get the dog or the cat back

348
00:17:27,873 --> 00:17:32,352
or whatever the pet was, but not 100% of the time.

349
00:17:32,353 --> 00:17:34,448
Unfortunately, the way that the courts look at

350
00:17:34,449 --> 00:17:36,468
this, it's very black and white in terms

351
00:17:36,469 --> 00:17:37,604
of the way that they look at it.

352
00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:39,972
So we've come up with some creative arguments to try

353
00:17:39,973 --> 00:17:42,830
to expand the different ways for clients to recover.

354
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:46,930
One of those is breach of contract.

355
00:17:47,670 --> 00:17:49,992
That's a pretty interesting issue

356
00:17:49,993 --> 00:17:51,918
I recently had in Colorado.

357
00:17:51,919 --> 00:17:55,800
I had a Colorado appellate court decision come down saying

358
00:17:57,450 --> 00:18:00,588
that the court had to look at the elements of

359
00:18:00,589 --> 00:18:05,900
consideration before just dismissing a breach of contract claim for

360
00:18:05,901 --> 00:18:09,938
a couple who were sharing the dog after they broke

361
00:18:09,939 --> 00:18:12,208
up for a period of, I want to say like

362
00:18:12,209 --> 00:18:14,128
three or four months, something like that.

363
00:18:14,129 --> 00:18:17,168
And Colorado does have case law that supports this.

364
00:18:17,169 --> 00:18:17,942
I had a client.

365
00:18:17,943 --> 00:18:20,032
I didn't handle the initial case, but she came

366
00:18:20,033 --> 00:18:23,108
to me, like, six years after her and her

367
00:18:23,109 --> 00:18:26,788
boyfriend were litigating this pet custody agreement, and they

368
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:31,040
were both trying to get the dog 100%.

369
00:18:31,890 --> 00:18:36,596
And the lawyer that the boyfriend had said,

370
00:18:36,597 --> 00:18:38,392
well, they should just share the dog.

371
00:18:38,393 --> 00:18:40,718
And then that's what the judge ordered.

372
00:18:40,719 --> 00:18:43,448
So they ended up having to share this

373
00:18:43,449 --> 00:18:44,568
dog for the rest of the dog's life.

374
00:18:44,569 --> 00:18:45,768
I think the dog was like three at

375
00:18:45,769 --> 00:18:47,496
the time that the litigation was going on.

376
00:18:47,497 --> 00:18:49,132
So anyway, she comes to me six years later

377
00:18:49,133 --> 00:18:50,722
and she's just like, I can't do this anymore.

378
00:18:50,723 --> 00:18:56,188
I've moved to durango from Denver, which is kind of

379
00:18:56,189 --> 00:18:58,768
the equivalent, I don't know, I mean, it's really far.

380
00:18:58,769 --> 00:19:02,416
It's like an eight hour drive one way, so it's far.

381
00:19:02,417 --> 00:19:04,112
And the logistics of that

382
00:19:04,113 --> 00:19:06,650
obviously were pretty insurmountable.

383
00:19:07,870 --> 00:19:10,704
So, yeah, I mean, there's case law to come in.

384
00:19:10,705 --> 00:19:12,912
I couldn't really do much, unfortunately, because

385
00:19:12,913 --> 00:19:14,954
the appellate period had passed, the motion

386
00:19:14,955 --> 00:19:17,810
for reconsideration period had passed.

387
00:19:17,811 --> 00:19:20,010
I tried a motion for reconsideration.

388
00:19:20,011 --> 00:19:21,114
The judge was like, no, it's

389
00:19:21,115 --> 00:19:22,960
six years, I'm not touching this.

390
00:19:23,650 --> 00:19:26,210
We ended up resolving the case out of court.

391
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:31,832
But it is it's tough because then you're looking at one

392
00:19:31,833 --> 00:19:35,112
person doesn't get the dog, one person does, or the cat

393
00:19:35,113 --> 00:19:39,244
or whatever, and then the other person spends a lot of

394
00:19:39,245 --> 00:19:42,280
money to get something that was already their own.

395
00:19:43,130 --> 00:19:48,448
And then the emotional ripping apart, I

396
00:19:48,449 --> 00:19:52,038
would say, of the relationship and ripping

397
00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:53,660
the animal out of a situation.

398
00:19:55,390 --> 00:19:58,198
It's kind of like child custody.

399
00:19:58,199 --> 00:20:01,232
The ideal divorce situation, to the extent that any

400
00:20:01,233 --> 00:20:03,268
divorce can be ideal, is that both parents sit

401
00:20:03,269 --> 00:20:06,938
down with the child and give an age appropriate

402
00:20:06,939 --> 00:20:09,156
explanation for what's going on and what the child

403
00:20:09,157 --> 00:20:10,900
can expect and things like that.

404
00:20:10,901 --> 00:20:13,508
And obviously you can't really explain it

405
00:20:13,509 --> 00:20:14,596
to a dog or a cat.

406
00:20:14,597 --> 00:20:17,496
But I think, like, having slower transitions and having

407
00:20:17,497 --> 00:20:19,672
a plan in place is a lot better for

408
00:20:19,673 --> 00:20:24,488
everyone mentally and emotionally, including the pet, because the

409
00:20:24,489 --> 00:20:28,280
court does not care about how your pet feels. Right.

410
00:20:28,281 --> 00:20:30,828
Well, and too bad that we don't have rules that

411
00:20:30,829 --> 00:20:34,316
say for pets and kids that they get to stay

412
00:20:34,317 --> 00:20:37,212
in their home and then the parents are the ones

413
00:20:37,213 --> 00:20:40,840
that have to come and go, not the kids. Right.

414
00:20:41,470 --> 00:20:43,070
Or the pets.

415
00:20:43,071 --> 00:20:44,502
That would be my ideal.

416
00:20:44,503 --> 00:20:46,662
That's what I always say when I'm talking to folks

417
00:20:46,663 --> 00:20:49,622
about estate planning for pets, is that if I die,

418
00:20:49,623 --> 00:20:51,520
I want my pets to stay at home.

419
00:20:51,521 --> 00:20:53,558
So in the event of a divorce,

420
00:20:53,559 --> 00:20:54,768
I would want the same thing.

421
00:20:54,769 --> 00:20:57,332
I would want my pets to stay at home and my

422
00:20:57,333 --> 00:21:00,148
former husband and I would have to just come in and

423
00:21:00,149 --> 00:21:03,810
out of the household so that the animal's life didn't change.

424
00:21:03,811 --> 00:21:04,560
Right.

425
00:21:06,050 --> 00:21:09,208
Not everybody is going to agree with that idea either.

426
00:21:09,209 --> 00:21:10,846
It would certainly be a deterrent.

427
00:21:10,847 --> 00:21:14,632
I think one of the other things that I know you work

428
00:21:14,633 --> 00:21:20,540
on from time to time has to do with service dogs. Yeah.

429
00:21:20,541 --> 00:21:22,300
So talk about that a little bit.

430
00:21:22,301 --> 00:21:24,410
Or service animals in general.

431
00:21:24,411 --> 00:21:28,002
Yeah, well, to that point, the ada

432
00:21:28,003 --> 00:21:30,374
has recently been amended the regulations.

433
00:21:30,375 --> 00:21:32,576
So it used to be that you could have

434
00:21:32,577 --> 00:21:37,110
service animals were defined as miniature horses or dogs.

435
00:21:37,111 --> 00:21:39,622
Now the definition is strictly dogs.

436
00:21:39,623 --> 00:21:41,460
So if you say service dog,

437
00:21:41,461 --> 00:21:43,722
that is technically the legal definition.

438
00:21:43,723 --> 00:21:45,684
Now you can no longer have a

439
00:21:45,685 --> 00:21:47,870
miniature horse as a service animal.

440
00:21:49,570 --> 00:21:52,420
So yeah, I do work with service

441
00:21:52,421 --> 00:21:55,486
animals, service dogs, emotional support animals.

442
00:21:55,487 --> 00:21:58,310
Emotional support animals can be any species.

443
00:21:58,311 --> 00:22:00,424
So that's a different ball game.

444
00:22:00,425 --> 00:22:01,784
And a lot of people don't understand the

445
00:22:01,785 --> 00:22:04,942
difference between emotional support animals and service animals,

446
00:22:04,943 --> 00:22:06,828
which is causing a lot of problems for

447
00:22:06,829 --> 00:22:10,150
my clients who use service animals.

448
00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:14,796
And a lot of this confusion comes

449
00:22:14,797 --> 00:22:16,476
from these websites that you hear.

450
00:22:16,477 --> 00:22:17,792
So I guess let me back up.

451
00:22:17,793 --> 00:22:20,646
So an emotional support animal is an animal

452
00:22:20,647 --> 00:22:23,740
that provides comfort to a person with a

453
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:31,280
diagnosed emotional, emotional or mental health.

454
00:22:31,281 --> 00:22:33,722
They just have an emotional or mental health diagnosis.

455
00:22:33,723 --> 00:22:35,466
It's not necessarily a disability.

456
00:22:35,467 --> 00:22:37,978
It can be, but it doesn't

457
00:22:37,979 --> 00:22:39,850
necessarily have to be a disability.

458
00:22:39,851 --> 00:22:42,442
And then the emotional support animal provides comfort.

459
00:22:42,443 --> 00:22:44,666
So the emotional support animal does not necessarily

460
00:22:44,667 --> 00:22:47,144
have to be trained to provide a specific

461
00:22:47,145 --> 00:22:50,050
type of comfort or do a specific action.

462
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:53,670
Again, they can be, but they don't have to be.

463
00:22:53,671 --> 00:22:55,948
But the big thing about emotional support animals is

464
00:22:55,949 --> 00:22:57,868
that they are not protected under the Americans with

465
00:22:57,869 --> 00:23:02,760
Disabilities Act and they are not allowed in public.

466
00:23:03,530 --> 00:23:05,132
So you cannot take your

467
00:23:05,133 --> 00:23:09,302
emotional support ferret to McDonald's.

468
00:23:09,303 --> 00:23:11,222
You cannot take your emotional

469
00:23:11,223 --> 00:23:13,526
support turtle on a plane.

470
00:23:13,527 --> 00:23:18,166
You cannot take your emotional support cat to the bank.

471
00:23:18,167 --> 00:23:21,200
They cannot accompany you in public.

472
00:23:21,730 --> 00:23:23,236
Service animals, on the other hand,

473
00:23:23,237 --> 00:23:24,960
can accompany you in public.

474
00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:27,898
They are required to be allowed

475
00:23:27,899 --> 00:23:31,098
to accompany you in public. That's what the Americans

476
00:23:31,099 --> 00:23:33,386
with Disabilities Act provides.

477
00:23:33,387 --> 00:23:35,294
Because the Americans with Disabilities Act doesn't

478
00:23:35,295 --> 00:23:38,222
necessarily provide the protection for the animal.

479
00:23:38,223 --> 00:23:40,728
It does tangentially through the fact that the

480
00:23:40,729 --> 00:23:44,472
ada protects the human with the medical need.

481
00:23:44,473 --> 00:23:48,604
And that protection extends to the the service dog

482
00:23:48,605 --> 00:23:52,760
because service dogs under the ada are essentially like

483
00:23:53,610 --> 00:23:59,210
a walking cane or a wheelchair or oxygen tank.

484
00:23:59,211 --> 00:24:03,440
Technically, a service dog is a medical device that this person

485
00:24:03,441 --> 00:24:05,936
needs in order to be able to go out and live

486
00:24:05,937 --> 00:24:09,530
life the same way as someone who is not disabled.

487
00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:13,914
So that's why service dogs can go anywhere

488
00:24:13,915 --> 00:24:18,420
in public with people, and businesses and public

489
00:24:18,421 --> 00:24:21,360
places have to accommodate the service dog.

490
00:24:22,130 --> 00:24:26,400
So that's the foundation for that.

491
00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:29,108
I think I kind of lost my train of thought.

492
00:24:29,109 --> 00:24:31,112
There is a lot of confusion around that.

493
00:24:31,113 --> 00:24:34,120
But suffice it to say that it's just another

494
00:24:34,121 --> 00:24:38,732
area of animal law that requires legal representation from

495
00:24:38,733 --> 00:24:42,188
time to time because people don't really understand what

496
00:24:42,189 --> 00:24:44,600
their rights or their obligations might be.

497
00:24:45,130 --> 00:24:47,500
And then I note on your website that you also

498
00:24:47,501 --> 00:24:50,528
work in the areas of exotic and wild animals from

499
00:24:50,529 --> 00:24:54,742
time to time, as well as rescues and sanctuaries.

500
00:24:54,743 --> 00:24:57,366
So I really want to share with our listeners

501
00:24:57,367 --> 00:25:00,986
that this idea of animal law is very broad.

502
00:25:00,987 --> 00:25:05,380
And although what you do is really unique because

503
00:25:05,381 --> 00:25:10,560
you limit your practice to these animal related issues,

504
00:25:11,570 --> 00:25:15,166
it really could fall into a number of categories.

505
00:25:15,167 --> 00:25:17,294
And again, I would ask people to visit

506
00:25:17,295 --> 00:25:21,320
your website at the THEANIMALLAWFIRM.COM because she gives

507
00:25:21,321 --> 00:25:24,046
lots of really good practical advice.

508
00:25:24,047 --> 00:25:25,850
There's a blog there.

509
00:25:25,851 --> 00:25:27,842
She also has her own podcast.

510
00:25:27,843 --> 00:25:30,370
Do you want to talk about your podcast, christina?

511
00:25:30,371 --> 00:25:32,300
Sure, yeah. Thank you.

512
00:25:32,301 --> 00:25:35,270
So my podcast is called Fighting for the underdog.

513
00:25:37,690 --> 00:25:40,902
We interview nonprofit and or animal

514
00:25:40,903 --> 00:25:42,576
advocates from all around the world.

515
00:25:42,577 --> 00:25:46,438
We've had people from Sudan was it Sudan? I forget.

516
00:25:46,439 --> 00:25:46,608
Actually.

517
00:25:46,609 --> 00:25:47,616
We've had a couple of different

518
00:25:47,617 --> 00:25:50,400
African countries, some animal organizations there.

519
00:25:50,401 --> 00:25:52,948
We've had people from all over the

520
00:25:52,949 --> 00:25:55,274
country in the United States as guests.

521
00:25:55,275 --> 00:25:58,122
But the goal is that we raise awareness

522
00:25:58,123 --> 00:26:01,236
for what animal advocacy can look like, how

523
00:26:01,237 --> 00:26:03,822
people can get involved with these organizations.

524
00:26:03,823 --> 00:26:09,566
And we've made a promise to donate our profits

525
00:26:09,567 --> 00:26:12,328
from the sale of merchandise for the podcast to

526
00:26:12,329 --> 00:26:14,904
the organization to appear as guests on our show.

527
00:26:14,905 --> 00:26:15,848
That's awesome.

528
00:26:15,849 --> 00:26:17,746
Yeah, the swag is pretty cute.

529
00:26:17,747 --> 00:26:20,188
So if you haven't, I would check it out.

530
00:26:20,189 --> 00:26:23,320
It's on your website, so it goes through good card.

531
00:26:24,570 --> 00:26:29,120
She also has in her store some legal forms that

532
00:26:29,121 --> 00:26:32,800
you could peruse if you were interested in that.

533
00:26:32,801 --> 00:26:37,088
But I think it's nice to know that this is

534
00:26:37,089 --> 00:26:40,890
a field of law that's growing and one where lawyers

535
00:26:40,891 --> 00:26:44,212
are taking it seriously and finding a way to make

536
00:26:44,213 --> 00:26:49,498
a living so that they can provide service to pet

537
00:26:49,499 --> 00:26:52,800
owners or I should say pets and their people.

538
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:55,198
Because it really is for the benefit

539
00:26:55,199 --> 00:26:57,540
of both the pets and the people.

540
00:26:58,470 --> 00:27:00,232
And if I could speak to that just really

541
00:27:00,233 --> 00:27:05,992
quick, I like to think that what we do

542
00:27:05,993 --> 00:27:08,184
at the Animal Law Firm is we provide people

543
00:27:08,185 --> 00:27:10,796
with hope where they didn't even think that hope

544
00:27:10,797 --> 00:27:15,052
was a possibility, because so few attorneys do this.

545
00:27:15,053 --> 00:27:16,588
You're right, it is a growing area of

546
00:27:16,589 --> 00:27:18,076
the law, but it's still very small.

547
00:27:18,077 --> 00:27:20,188
And so few attorneys do this.

548
00:27:20,189 --> 00:27:22,368
So few attorneys specialize in this that

549
00:27:22,369 --> 00:27:24,512
when something happens to their animal, they

550
00:27:24,513 --> 00:27:25,926
just think all hope is lost.

551
00:27:25,927 --> 00:27:29,248
And then if they happen to come across my website, we

552
00:27:29,249 --> 00:27:31,382
finally give them a light at the end of the tunnel.

553
00:27:31,383 --> 00:27:34,836
And we usually can resolve things that

554
00:27:34,837 --> 00:27:37,220
best benefits the pet and the person.

555
00:27:37,221 --> 00:27:38,532
And not just pets, too.

556
00:27:38,533 --> 00:27:40,532
I mean, this is hobby animals because we've had

557
00:27:40,533 --> 00:27:45,790
sheep, goats, llamas, horses, turtles, snakes as clients.

558
00:27:45,791 --> 00:27:49,710
So I mean, it's not just typical four legged,

559
00:27:49,711 --> 00:27:53,010
we go no legged, we do all the legs.

560
00:27:53,670 --> 00:27:55,720
Do you want to talk a little bit?

561
00:27:55,721 --> 00:27:57,532
And maybe we can end on this note, but

562
00:27:57,533 --> 00:28:02,412
just about the benefits of alternative dispute resolution or

563
00:28:02,413 --> 00:28:04,636
mediation in the field of animal law.

564
00:28:04,637 --> 00:28:07,564
So not necessarily always having to

565
00:28:07,565 --> 00:28:08,810
end up in a courtroom.

566
00:28:09,630 --> 00:28:11,390
That's a good question.

567
00:28:11,391 --> 00:28:16,912
I would say for pet custody situations, it's possible to

568
00:28:16,913 --> 00:28:24,800
use a mediation or any ADR type of thing.

569
00:28:25,650 --> 00:28:29,588
That said, if you're not in court, you

570
00:28:29,589 --> 00:28:32,186
can never force someone to take mediation.

571
00:28:32,187 --> 00:28:34,122
So if you already have an active lawsuit

572
00:28:34,123 --> 00:28:36,046
and you want to mediate, you can file

573
00:28:36,047 --> 00:28:38,446
a motion asking the judge to order mediation.

574
00:28:38,447 --> 00:28:41,208
And 9.9 times out of ten, they will

575
00:28:41,209 --> 00:28:44,574
order mediation even if the other party objects.

576
00:28:44,575 --> 00:28:47,314
But if you don't have an active lawsuit pending, there's

577
00:28:47,315 --> 00:28:50,178
nothing you can do to force someone to mediate.

578
00:28:50,179 --> 00:28:52,440
Because a lot of times you got to pay.

579
00:28:53,130 --> 00:28:55,270
Both parties have to pay the mediator.

580
00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:59,952
Some people are like, no, I've got the dog in my room.

581
00:28:59,953 --> 00:29:02,160
I don't need to mediate because

582
00:29:02,161 --> 00:29:04,330
I'm holding all the cards.

583
00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:10,352
I think mediation can work, but mediation can only work

584
00:29:10,353 --> 00:29:14,180
if everybody is willing to give it a chance. Right?

585
00:29:14,181 --> 00:29:15,588
Or if you were smart enough in

586
00:29:15,589 --> 00:29:18,324
advance to have that written contract that

587
00:29:18,325 --> 00:29:21,390
required mediation as opposed to litigation.

588
00:29:22,690 --> 00:29:23,440
Yes.

589
00:29:25,090 --> 00:29:27,252
I've had judges ask me before, well, why

590
00:29:27,253 --> 00:29:28,670
didn't you put this in a contract?

591
00:29:28,671 --> 00:29:31,048
And the answer is always, like you said

592
00:29:31,049 --> 00:29:32,664
earlier, well, we didn't think we were going

593
00:29:32,665 --> 00:29:34,340
to break up when we were getting together.

594
00:29:35,270 --> 00:29:37,368
Well, my other favorite thing, and not

595
00:29:37,369 --> 00:29:39,340
to make fun of people in general.

596
00:29:39,341 --> 00:29:41,868
But my other favorite thing is when clients call me

597
00:29:41,869 --> 00:29:44,972
and say, can you review this contract for me?

598
00:29:44,973 --> 00:29:47,340
And I've already signed it.

599
00:29:47,341 --> 00:29:50,108
And I'm like, yeah, I can review it, but

600
00:29:50,109 --> 00:29:52,840
if you've already signed it, it's a done deal.

601
00:29:53,790 --> 00:29:56,918
So I can tell you what you've signed, but I'm

602
00:29:56,919 --> 00:30:00,080
not really in a position to make any suggestions about

603
00:30:00,081 --> 00:30:02,336
how we could modify that at this point.

604
00:30:02,337 --> 00:30:05,520
So I think the point of pet owners here is

605
00:30:06,450 --> 00:30:08,762
we have to be more proactive as pet owners.

606
00:30:08,763 --> 00:30:10,852
We have to think about the things that can go

607
00:30:10,853 --> 00:30:14,168
wrong with our pets and try to protect ourselves in

608
00:30:14,169 --> 00:30:18,008
advance so that if we do find ourselves in a

609
00:30:18,009 --> 00:30:21,990
dispute with someone else over the life of a pet,

610
00:30:21,991 --> 00:30:26,136
that we have some options available to us. Definitely.

611
00:30:26,137 --> 00:30:29,212
And I think I think any good attorney who's worth

612
00:30:29,213 --> 00:30:32,732
their salt will tell you that having options is the

613
00:30:32,733 --> 00:30:36,668
best thing you can possibly do for yourself. Absolutely.

614
00:30:36,669 --> 00:30:37,724
All right, so what would you

615
00:30:37,725 --> 00:30:41,160
leave us with here today, christina? Oh, wow.

616
00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:43,770
You're wisdom.

617
00:30:44,350 --> 00:30:45,770
Words of wisdom.

618
00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:50,300
In terms of practical advice, I would say

619
00:30:53,410 --> 00:30:56,292
never put your pet in a situation that

620
00:30:56,293 --> 00:30:58,932
you yourself would not want to be in.

621
00:30:58,933 --> 00:31:00,516
You really need to get to know

622
00:31:00,517 --> 00:31:02,800
your pet like I know my dog.

623
00:31:03,890 --> 00:31:06,640
I am my dog's emotional support, human.

624
00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:10,088
She is the sweetest dog in the world, but

625
00:31:10,089 --> 00:31:11,928
she's very nervous and I know that about her.

626
00:31:11,929 --> 00:31:14,318
And so I don't put her in situations

627
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:16,568
that's going to make her more nervous because

628
00:31:16,569 --> 00:31:19,720
that's when she's a good dog.

629
00:31:19,721 --> 00:31:21,916
But that would be a bad situation for her.

630
00:31:21,917 --> 00:31:22,940
And that's what I feel.

631
00:31:22,941 --> 00:31:25,074
Most of the dogs that come to me are they're

632
00:31:25,075 --> 00:31:27,324
good dogs, but they were put in a bad situation.

633
00:31:27,325 --> 00:31:30,198
So I would tell pet owners, be a good pet

634
00:31:30,199 --> 00:31:33,790
owner and don't put your pet in a bad situation.

635
00:31:33,791 --> 00:31:34,422
Excellent.

636
00:31:34,423 --> 00:31:35,958
Well, that's excellent advice.

637
00:31:35,959 --> 00:31:37,440
All right, we've been talking today

638
00:31:37,441 --> 00:31:40,342
with our new friend  Kristina Bergsten.

639
00:31:40,343 --> 00:31:44,372
She is the Animal Law Firm and fighting for the

640
00:31:44,373 --> 00:31:48,980
underdog, and you can find her at THEANIMALLAWFIRM.COM

641
00:31:48,981 --> 00:31:52,132
I so appreciate you listeners for joining us

642
00:31:52,133 --> 00:31:54,436
each and every week as we explore all

643
00:31:54,437 --> 00:31:57,210
these fascinating topics related to pets.

644
00:31:57,211 --> 00:32:00,648
And my favorite motto it is until there

645
00:32:00,649 --> 00:32:03,816
are none, please adopt one and please protect

646
00:32:03,817 --> 00:32:05,320
your pet with a pet trust.

647
00:32:05,321 --> 00:32:08,174
Until next time, happy tails.

648
00:32:08,175 --> 00:32:10,620
Thank you for joining us on All My Children.

649
00:32:10,621 --> 00:32:13,490
Wear Fur coats with your host, Peggy Hoyt.

650
00:32:13,491 --> 00:32:15,506
We hope you learned something valuable

651
00:32:15,507 --> 00:32:17,378
for the benefit of your pet.

652
00:32:17,379 --> 00:32:19,602
We want to keep loved pets in loving

653
00:32:19,603 --> 00:32:22,850
homes by educating pet parents about the importance

654
00:32:22,851 --> 00:32:25,724
of ensuring every pet has a forever home.

655
00:32:25,725 --> 00:32:28,044
Get more information about creating a

656
00:32:28,045 --> 00:32:30,034
legacy for your pet at ANIMALCARETRUSTUSA.ORG 

657
00:32:30,035 --> 00:32:35,380
or LEGACYFORYOURPET.COM.

658
00:32:35,381 --> 00:32:38,330
Buy a copy of All My Children Wear Fur Coats

659
00:32:38,331 --> 00:32:41,514
how to Leave a Legacy for Your Pet on Amazon.

660
00:32:41,515 --> 00:32:43,764
Join our email list or make a.

661
00:32:43,765 --> 00:32:47,386
Donation, pet professionals and advisors are invited

662
00:32:47,387 --> 00:32:49,770
to join our trusted advisor network.

663
00:32:49,771 --> 00:32:51,690
Until next time, happy tailss.